The Need For Nuance In The Debate On Masculinity

If we keep labelling all masculinity as toxic, we shouldn't be surprised if that is what comes to pass.

I’ve just finished listening to the Mark Zuckerberg-Joe Rogan podcast, and based on the number of memes I’ve seen floating around, I was expecting to hear a diabolical tirade against women and “wokeness” and come away feeling like I needed to reassess my podcast choices. However, the coverage seemed far more extreme than the conversation itself, with the worst versions of masculinity once again being platformed and nuance around the topic seemingly absent. I don’t agree with everything discussed on the podcast, but the reaction to it continues a trend of critiquing masculinity in any form, which serves only to push men further to the right and alienate them from the conversation.

I came to the podcast a bit late, but as a man who works in HR, coaches other men, and has led company-wide Diversity and Inclusion programmes—doing the work to make change happen with both those who were on board with it and those who weren’t—my interest was piqued.

The problem with the coverage I’ve seen is that it positions the podcast discussion as some chauvinistic rant promoting toxic masculinity, when in reality, it was all quite underwhelming. If anything, the reaction to it was more extreme than the conversation itself. Time and time again, the worst examples of masculinity in the workplace or elsewhere are presented as the only examples, further ostracising the moderate man whose greatest toxic trait is listening to a podcast that used to be about martial arts and comedy. And when we ignore, ridicule, or shame discussions about what it means to be a man—either because we don’t like the source or don’t like the topic—we throw out the baby with the bathwater of polarising internet chat.

I’m certainly not saying that everything Meta or Zuckerberg does is right, or even that all of the views shared on the podcast are ones I agree with. What I am saying, though, is that I have concerns with the way it’s been discussed since. It’s a continuation of a theme that pushes men and boys to the right through a consistent attack on masculinity.

This all coincides with a Tim Minchin clip I’ve recently come across (skip to around 29:50 if you’re curious), where he describes the same issue. And the dust has now settled enough on the US election to reveal demographic voting trends, including what could follow here in the UK. Men and boys are constantly bombarded with messages that they are a threat to be managed and that to be a man is to be a problem. In my time leading D&I initiatives, I frequently met men who were broadly on board with the principles of equity and inclusion but wouldn’t speak up or get involved for fear of saying the wrong thing. Right now, the only people offering answers to that fear are those on the political right, who start with a message men rarely hear: being a man is good; don’t listen to those guys—you’re fine as you are. But, of course, this quickly backslides into more insidious territory. Better people than me have observed this pattern.

So, when you listen to the podcast and hear two men talk about the therapeutic and calming effects of martial arts and the sense of community that comes with it, I find myself nodding along—I couldn’t agree more. I train jiu-jitsu, and it’s one of the best things I’ve ever done. I think more men should have a physical and mental outlet for stress and aggression that is productive and healthy. Loneliness is a massive problem among men, and any community centred on physical activity is a gift. Again: baby, bathwater.

The talk about masculine energy in the workplace is somewhat disappointing given the coverage, which, from what I saw, swung between ridiculing the concept of masculinity entirely or platforming its worst manifestations. You hear Zuckerberg say that we want women to achieve in the workplace, that we need to remove bias so people can succeed regardless of their background, and that there needs to be a balance of masculine and feminine energy—but he doesn’t think we should say masculinity is bad.

I truly hope it goes without saying that I don’t think the work is done when it comes to creating balance in the workplace or ensuring the progress we’ve made in the rights of women and girls isn’t taken for granted or stymied. Much remains to be done. But that does not mean we can’t recognise when something is amiss with men too. Richard Reeves has written an entire, incredible book on this topic titled Of Boys and Men. In it, he discusses how recognising where men are failing and attempting to make corrections does not have to come at the expense of women’s rights—whether it’s progress already made or still to come.

While I have thoughts on the workplace aspect, it’s more the coverage of the conversation that troubles me.

My fear is that if we continue to get this wrong, we’ll push men further to the right, down rabbit holes of toxic influencers and conspiracy theorists who hijack what it means to be a man. We need to have a nuanced conversation about what we’re getting right, what we’re getting wrong, and, along the way, support and celebrate strong and capable men who are delighted when the women around them succeed and have a strong enough sense of self to separate themselves from anyone who says or does otherwise.

The alternative, I fear, is that if we react with vitriol any time masculinity is mentioned or label as “alt-right” a source that many men listen to, we’ll guide men and boys into the waiting arms of those with very different intentions—intentions that would prefer a very different future to be realised.

So, the next time the opportunity arises to pass judgement on masculinity and what it means to be a man, perhaps we should amplify the virtues of positive masculinity or look for areas of agreement that we can build upon. The more we can give young men this message, the more likely it is that it might just be what happens.